Workplace Rights & Career Moves in the Menopause Part 1

Today I am joined by the incredible Amanda Connolly who has over 25 years experience in HR and also a career coach.   We are talking all things from workplace rights to changing your career during midlife.   You will learn all about work culture and what your company should have in place, what law is changing this year and also some tips to help. 

We also cover why some women change jobs during midlife, is it due to Menopause?  Are they fed up with their current job or is it something else.  All will be revealed.

This is not an episode to be missed! Part two is released on Thursday where more information, questions to Amanda and of course it wouldn't be menopause dinners without some food!  

Please get in touch if you would like to be on the podcast, either as a guest or in the audience.  There is absolutely no experience needed, no professional talking, I am looking for the average female who is going through their menopause and would like to talk openly about it.  If this sounds like you or you would like to be around other women to feel supported, then please get in touch through any of the details below.  This can be online, in person or at IG6 3HD

Email - ⁠⁠menopausedinners@gmail.com⁠⁠

Website: https://www.menopausedinners.co.uk

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Sponsored by: Fitness Therapy 4 you: ⁠⁠https://www.fitnesstherapy4you.co.uk⁠⁠

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You Tube channel where you can learn about the Menopause: ⁠⁠http://www.youtube.com/@fitnesstherapy4you508

Amanda Connelly. 
Website :  https://www.pauseandempower.com/
linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manda-connolly/
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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome to Menopause Dinners. My name is Sarah and I'm your host. Not only is it me, but I have some incredible guests for me today. You can expect real stories, laughter, a few tears, and some facts to help you feel not alone in this ship's storm called Menopause. So stay tight and let's ride the storm together. Welcome to Menopause Dinners. So I've got such an incredible episode for you today. Before I introduce the guests, I just want to tell you first of all what the subject is.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

Workplace rights and career moves.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

First of all, women in working in the during their menopause is quite a big thing because let's face it, ladies, when we're going through our menopause with our change, there's so many problems that we that we encounter for not for just ourselves but also possible work problems as well. And also things like are we, you know, do we want to change the jobs that we're doing? Sometimes we do, sometimes we change it because we're fed up, sometimes I don't know, maybe our estrogen has dropped and the bullshit factor's gone, and then we realise how bad our job actually is, and we and that's why we change. But you know what? I can't, I don't understand it. So I've I've got some help. But before I introduce the guests today, I just want to explain to you that one in six people, so that's 17%, considered leaving their work, okay, due to lack of support, and 10% feel that they're discriminated because they're in their menopause. That's shocking, but it's true. So we have a HR consultant with 25 years plus experience and also a career coach, okay, and she is from Paul's and Empower, and she's gonna tell us all what we need to know. I like to welcome Amanda Connolly.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

No pressure there, ladies and hour.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Welcome, Amanda, welcome, welcome. So before we get into the nitty-gritties, what we like to do at menopause dinners is just explain to everyone where we are in our menopause. Uh so I am post-menopause three years, and yourself?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

I am perimenopause. I have been on HRT for about three years. Um, probably with symptoms for about five, I reckon.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Okay, all right. And yeah, I am HRT free. There you go. Just just because my choice. But they did bully me on one episode about HRT. They all ganged up on me.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

It's everybody's different.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

I know, but can we talk about that today? Because that is this is the workplace, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

And I'd say it's very good for stopping um what's it called? Um brain fog. What's the arthritis thing? Oh, well, osteo. Osteo. It's really good for osteo. And there's a new um research that's coming out that said it's um actually good to take estrogen to um stop breast cancer.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Okay. That was last week. Well, we have got lots of information this morning. And that's not even Korean, that's just HR. HRT, in fact. So we're gonna have a quiz. Um just a 20-second just to liven things up a bit. And this is problems that women experience at work during the menopause.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Okay. Are you ready? I am. 20 seconds start now. Okay, so I'm gonna go with myself because I had lots of them. I had brain fog, where I'd forget my boss's name or what I was talking about mid-presentation. I had hot flip. 10 seconds remaining. Um, I had achiness and had low-level rage.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Oh, um, lack of confidence, not wanting to be my job anymore, and definitely brain fog. Forgetting someone's name when they want him for a treatment. Oh there we go. That was great. Thank you. So um now we've got the you know, little what do you call it? Uh you know, not teaser, what is the word? You know.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

You're asking the wrong person. I've got no idea.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

What is it? Oh, it's like, you know what it is. Anyway, let's Intro. Intro, now we've got the intro out of the way. Thank you very much. This is gonna be a Lon night. I can feel it. Okay, so let's get some background on Amanda. So, um, do you want to tell us not your life history because we don't have Lon, but maybe tell us a bit about your your career and what you've done to date.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Okay, Doke. Well, I kind of fell into HR when I was about 23, 24 and managed to get my masters sponsored by a company. Um, I was doing contract work and really loved contract work. So I spent about 25 years working across many, many different sectors from public to biotech, e-com, engineering, all sorts of um arts. I worked for Bobcom. Um, so did that. Uh and then I was misdiagnosed as depressed instead of perimenopausal, which happens to a lot of women. So my symptoms were this is when I was doing contracting, so I was going into jobs and only lasting, I'd never lost, I'd never lost contract early. Four in the trot on the trot, I was sort of cut off at three months, and I realised retrospectively that I had hot flushes, brain fog was really bad. I thought I had dementia um and low level rage, and then on top of that, because they'd been put me on antidepressants, I had no empathy. What a great look for an HR consultant. That wasn't great at all. So I basically decided um to jack it in, got myself a life coach, thought, what do I do now? Um, just thought, well, I could do that. It's just talking to people, isn't it? That's not hard. So I took two years out, um, trained, and then this is a big thing with co with coaches, it's unregulated, so anyone can say they're a coach, but I spent two years training and then wanted to support women like myself, so professional women that are going through challenging times. So I'm a career coach and mentor for women that are going through change, so that could be menopause, yeah, it could be redundancy divorce or just wanting a better work-life balance. Oh, divorce is a good one because I'm sure that's on the rise in midlife. Yeah, definitely. Wow. You lose your bullshit, don't you? Yeah, you don't put up with it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

You're like, who are you? Yeah. Why am I with you?

unknown 6:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Same thing with work. Why am I here?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

These people are all idiots. Yeah. That happens quite regularly.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Okay, so do you feel that it's helped you obviously with your menopause for changing changing your job slightly and focusing on a different area?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, because HR has changed quite significantly since COVID. They've really become like prime people in the organisation because they're constantly pushing change and pushing you know new things. We live in a world that constantly changes, don't we? Yeah, yeah. And HR have to be the pay people to make sure that's happening within a business. Sure. So it's not fun. There's loads of HR that's but that's burning out. I just and also because my tolerance for idiots was never really there in the first place, but I could hold it down, and now I can't, I don't want to hold it down.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

No, no, let it let it out.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, so being my own boss and supporting women that are struggling, that's that's really what I love doing.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

So it's absolutely fantastic that I don't have to go in and listen to some 20-year-old idiot telling me what to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Yeah, yeah. A lot of women struggle, and men struggle with that, you know. It's uh yeah. Okay, perfect. So let's talk about the workplace because you know it's changed a lot over the years. Yeah. Um, and mainly menopause. So, Davina McCall, I mean, she's done quite a few things.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Lover or hater, is she's brought it into the mainstream. She was having conf there's not a lot of money in HRT because it's not medication, it's hormones. So none of the big businesses really want to invest in it. So people weren't really taking it seriously, but she put it on the agenda. She was where it was on the news, suddenly people were picking up on it. People in businesses were thinking, oh, we've got to do something about this. So I think just by pushing it out there, I think that's helped a huge amount of people. Because women, when when I was men, when I decided when I realized that I was Perry, and I'm like the youngest in my friendship group, when I started talking about it with my friends, I realised that they were all Perry as well. Wow. But we weren't talking about it. No, that's that was only like five or six years ago. Yeah, yeah. So I think that this being open and you know, sort of discussing things, how you're feeling, it's a bit of a trend with Gen Zs. They're always talking about how they're feeling, aren't they? But we've never done that as you know, exers.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Yeah, we kind of like just get on with it. Yeah, just that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

All of those all those things got plastered everywhere. Keep calm, carry on. Yeah, yeah, no, so you've got something to say, say it, but say it in a nice way.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

So obviously Davina's brought everything to the forefront.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

So But what's making it an issue with at the moment is the the employment laws that's being changed. So the Labour government have have got a raft of different things, quite a lot that affect women of a certain age. Um the biggest one is that from this year, date unknown just yet, that menopauses begin to come a protected characteristic. So you cannot get sacked if you're menopausal for those reasons for your symptoms. Okay, which is a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

That is massive, yeah. That is massive.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Okay, so and if you're a big business, if you're 250 people or more, you actually have to have a menopausal report. So where you've got, you know, sort of gender reporting, yeah, menopausal reporting is gonna go in. Now that doesn't affect small businesses, but at some point they'll have to start doing it. Yeah, they will because it's HR isn't a nice or sorry, menopause isn't a nice to have, it's needed because women that have been in a business that long have got so much skills and experience and leadership qualities, and menopause is just a temporary glitch. Yeah, yeah, you know, and with a few reasonable adjustments, you can make it work for you. Yeah, but the problem is that because people didn't understand menopause, they generally thought their staff would go and do lally.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

And that's the problem. If you don't understand it, that's you would essentially think that at a lost of plot, because a lot of women, especially when they go through the peri where they're so erratic with their with their moods, and they don't even realise their menopause initially. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

But I think what's happening within business generally over the last five years is we've become a lot more individualised.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

So it's not blanket ban policies anymore. If you have something that's going on, we have to look at that and work out how to make that work for you, you know. Be it fl so if you're um if you need flexible working, that might be working from home for a few days a week if that's possible, or having a fan on your desk, or if you're wearing a uniform, maybe not you, you know, use it putting on a uniform that's maybe lighter or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

That's a really good one, actually, because some sometimes if you're working for, I don't know, some smaller companies and they give you a uniform, yeah. Some women are not good with like heavy, heavy clothes because of the sweat.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

No, absolutely. Oh my gosh. And there is an now an obligation for organisations to work with you for these sorts of things. And it's beneficial to the business, to be honest, because if you've got that talent and you let it go, it's gonna take a long time to build that up. But if you just sort of put in those reasonable adjustments and work with that person, then not only will they be grateful and they will work harder for you. Yeah, this is kind of my experience when you sort of do something for an individual that's a little bit different, they will be super loyal. But uh the well-being across the whole organisation will be reflected because they'll see how you're treating that person, and so people will be slightly more respectful of the organisation, I think. Whereas if they see you getting sacked, then it's a bit like when you made redundant survivor syndrome. You don't want to work for a business that treats people badly, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

So here's the thing do I mean, from your experience, if you've got a female boss or a male boss, who's see, I've heard a few stories on this, but who will be more likely to be um nicer, if you like, more compassionate in the fact of the menopause?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

I have to say that I've had um predominantly male managers, but I've had female managers and it's split. It really depends on a lot to do with the industry when you're working in very fast-paced male-dominated industries, the women aren't that um empathetic, shall I say? Yes, yes, you're right. But when you're working in the public sector or arts and charities, then they're a bit more on the board.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Do you mean like banking?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Because that they can be a little bit banking. I've got money, so they've got money to throw at things, but I don't think they're necessarily that bothered about the well-being element and bothered about the profits.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, no, I can agree. I I I know a lot about that, definitely. That is just my experience. I'm sure there are amazing banks out there.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

No, there no, there are. There are definitely, but some obviously, especially when they've got that drive of pushing them, you're gonna get a lot of women that are at that level where really, let's face it, they're not gonna be as uh empathetic, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Because I think with I think women of our age that are in those sort of male environments have had to be quite masculine in their approach. Yes, yes. So that kind of resonates with how they deal with people as well. But some of the nicest guys I've worked with have been tech leaders. So when they have a woman that's experiencing something, they're much more open to working around that person because all they're seeing is the output. Yeah, they're not necessarily thinking about all the drama and the characteristics, they're just thinking, well, if we can help this woman to do her job better, then let's do that.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

So it's what about they uh some of these companies have uh menopause champions now, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yes, and something that I was chatting to Carol about before we came on air, sorry about that, Sarah, is that um I think like many things, there's an element of box ticking around um menopause, like mental health as well. We've got we've trained someone, we're all fine. Now, my experience of change management is quite extensive, and when you change something in the business to improve it, you have to consult with your staff, make sure the policy reflects what they're feeling. You have to train your managers up, you need to make sure it's included in your sort of you know personal development and sort of what managers that are getting appraised every year need to be looked at for this sort of stuff. That's conscientious change. But what's happening in a lot of organisations, I believe, is that they're doing a box ticking exercise, they're going away, chat GPT in their policy, knocking it on the internet, Bob's your uncle, vanish your aunt, that's where it is. Oh, you've got a question about menopause going and look at the internet. That that doesn't change an organization, it doesn't embed those policies. I know I understand what you're saying. So I think there's been a lot of box ticking. So let's see if I think we'll find that there's a lot of cases that come out of all of these box ticking exercises where women are generally not being treated as individuals. Yeah. So, and if that's the case, when it's protected characteristic, they can take their bosses to court. And I think we'll see that because you know, women a certain age, we don't put up with the bullshit anymore.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

We certainly don't put up with the bullshit, that's for sure. No, that's really interesting, actually. Yeah, because uh, you know, I know a lot of companies, these big companies, have got these menopause champions, but but then again, like you said, it it could be just a um just a tick box.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

If they do have champions, then it's probably more likely that those champions have been trained.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Yeah, uh, that's the other thing I was gonna say to you about because this training that they have for these champions, what do they do? Do they go on a course?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, it's usually like a one-day course, I think. Is it? Yeah, which is quite a lot for training to be honest. But it's again, it's not about them being skilled, it's about their leadership population being open to receiving that information because every single manager is the one that positions that policy. So if you've got a manager, like manager A and manager B, manager A realize is quite progressive and realizes that there's a good conversation to have if they want to keep their you know sort of productive staff. Manager B is just like it's got nothing to do with me, talk to HR. Yeah, then that they won't be having the same experience. So it's really important not only the champions are trained, but the leadership buys into the changes as well, and they are actually living those sort of values.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

God, that's so that's tricky. It is tricky, it's like a trickle effect, isn't it? Everyone's got to be involved. Because they have now. Um, someone again told me this about their company. So they have drop-down boxes when someone's off sick, for instance, it comes up with menopause, so they're a little bit more open now to someone having time off. Some some uh companies have uh tell me if I'm right or wrong, it's almost like when someone's had a pregnancy, a sabbatical, they can have some time off if they're struggling. Is that something that's happening?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

No, that's that's that's a progressive organisation, and I've I've I'm lucky enough to have worked with some really progressive organisations that if someone is struggling, they would do that sort of thing for them. But they are the exception to the rule, I think, for progressive organisations. Most of them, it's not it's not a requirement and it's not a you know um a right to have time off. Um you can't get away with it if you're so debilitated that you need time off, then you need to take time off. Sure. They can't sort of they can't get funny about it, yeah. But they're probably not publicising that, and then it's a bit like sickness. Like I've worked in some organisations where companies will give sort of like 20 days sick without question, and so people think that's an entitlement.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

It's not really no, I I know. So I I've yeah, I can't say it. I'm gonna get in trouble if I say it. Yeah, I might tell you once this comes off, actually. But yeah, I know a lot of people think because they've got 20 days sick that that's what they should take. Yeah, but actually it's not, it's it's there just as a preventative, if anything.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, and it's for a manager to say, yeah, I can use my judgment, I believe them, let's not make anything out of it. But if you're going over 20 days, that's quite a lot. You want to work out what's happening there, and with all these systems now that they've got, you can see if someone's ticking menopause, but every time they they're having a menopause symptoms, it's a Friday and a Monday. Yeah, that's still worth a conversation. Yeah. That's someone that's probably not menopausal, just a bit whingy and taking time off. Going down the pub. Yeah. Or if it's sunny, going outside and sunbathing.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Going outside and sunbathing my hot flush.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, that is it's quite nice to have a hot flush when it's in the winter, it's not so much fun in the summer as well.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Right, that's right. Okay, so typical problems in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

So typical ones that I've sort of heard about are brain fog tends to be the worst because if either you know you met Perry and you're struggling with it, or you don't know, and you think you're going dude lally, but when you start walking into rooms and forgetting why you're there, or the big one is uh women for perimenopausal women forgetting what they're talking about mid-presentation. Yeah, and these so brain fog has a massive knock-on effect, confidence and perceived capability. I think that hot flushes are another one that are really, really commonplace, and that requires you know, walking outside, putting a fan on your desk. But unless you're confident, unless you've got the right sort of manager to talk about that this with, you're gonna keep it a secret, you know, and you're just gonna bumble through, getting more and more angry that your company isn't supporting you because you don't have the right people in place to do that. So, yeah, brain fog, hot flushes, and then you've got the individual stuff like itchiness. I had a woman that was getting really itchy all the time. That was that was a tricky one to work with because I wasn't really sure how to help her on that one to get to the sorry, we've had we've done one on itchy, but it's to do with downstairs. Oh, it's all over the place. Like one woman had really itchy um ears and fingers, but it was frustrating, super frustrating for her. It's weird what the menopause throws up, doesn't it? Some of the things that wouldn't be much fun. Yeah, downstairs wouldn't be much fun. You'd dash into the loo every two minutes.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

And a little scratch. Mid presentation. It's not great, is it not great?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Mid appraisal. How you do? Let me see if I've scratched.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Let me just like move my leg over slightly and just just get it. Yeah, that's weird. Itching, yeah. I suppose everyone's so different. It's not just a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, the topics are different things, but I think generally it's because their confidence has been knocked. So when their confidence has been knocked, they don't feel as capable, they're probably not behaving the way they usually do because they're all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

So without having a conversation with without feeling you're in a psychologically safe environment where you can raise this with people, your anxiety and stress is absolutely increasing because you've got no one to turn to. So as well as all your symptoms, you're now getting super anxious, which is going to have an impact on how you do your job as well.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

God, that's so bad, isn't it? When you think about you know, 'cause also there's a bit where some women, I mean, me included, you'll just cry for no reason. Or if someone says boo to you, you'll you'll really lose it. So and to be in a workplace and have that can be quite embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

It can, yeah. Um I'm pretty sure that most people that feel that rage coming on would kind of take themselves out of that situation.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

We'd hope so, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

If they if they didn't, you've probably got some issues with them generally anyway. Not just about the menopause and how their bad behaviour. So I think that, yeah, you do get I mean, I definitely got low level rage, but I would just literally keep saying that.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Should we all be worried? No, because I'm I'm on the HRT, I'm sorted now. Because on the last episode, Maria was talking about axe throwing, so we don't want any axe throwing in here today.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

I've got my knife and my bag. I'll leave it there for the time. Yeah, no, no, so it was it was something that definitely I just lost all my patience and I was getting really angry with people and constantly walking out of rooms and stuff. So that was a bit of an issue for me that I wasn't actually in the same room as people a lot of the time. Um but no, it's it with HRT that's all of that, and the hot flushes, and I do have a little bit of brain fog every now and again, but our meant our hormones just go up and down constantly. So even if you're on HRT in supplements, it's gonna have an impact on your body that's gonna vary over the weeks and the months. So am I? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Because uh years ago I worked with someone who always had time off when her period came because she had back issues, it was common knowledge, you know. That is a thing. That is definitely a thing. So that's a thing. So hopefully at some point this will become a thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

It'll have to become a thing because it's becoming law. Yeah. So absolutely. And actually, the the period thing that that's not really been dealt with. Companies do it, yeah, but it's not really a is it not?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

I don't think that's a is it's still kind of a little bit stiffer.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, a little bit vague on the how to interpret that.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Oh, don't tell me to do this return to work interview. No, don't don't want to know, don't want to know. Yeah, sorry, yeah. It's it can be a bit awkward for some people still, can't it, to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

But the confidence, sorry, you were about to say something.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

It's all it's all about making sure you're upskilling yourself so you know what you're entitled to, you know what your business should be doing for you. I think a lot of the reasons people don't talk women don't talk about what they're going through is because they don't know where they stand and they're worried about getting sacked. Yeah. Brain fog thing. Yeah. That requires conversations. Definitely. Because there's I mean, even if you're on HRT, it will happen. So that's about an education piece when you're talking to your boss. The confidence dips, I don't necessarily think that's something you have to share with your peers and your colleagues, but it needs to be something that you're working on. If you're aware that your confidence is dipping, then even if you're not engaging a coach, you're just talking to a friend that this is something I need to do. You know, go away, find your self-support, find some online courses, read some books, deal with what your issue is when you've got the confidence drop.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Why would you not tell your boss that you've lost your confidence? Because most people sorry, there is as soon as I say that it sounds obvious, but I need to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Most people don't understand menopause. So rather than scaring them, you can say sort of like this is I don't know who I am anymore. Yeah, I'm not sleeping. Yeah. So I need a bed in the side.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Um, but I think it's about being pragmatic. Okay. You know what I mean? Like if you've got a really lovely boss, then there's nothing wrong with saying a menopausal, it's having a real knock on impact confidence. I'm working on trying to improve it.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Um, the anxiety again, that is something you can talk about at work because everybody else does. Yeah. After the world's got anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Well, we've all got mental health. Well, yeah, it's a scale, isn't it? It is.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Lunatic, completely sane.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

It's it's horrible, really. I think we've gone a little bit too much with it.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Well, do you know what? It's everyone's got mental health. Doesn't mean you can take all the time off the God sends. Yeah, yeah. You're paid to do a job. Yeah. You know, and this is this is this is what I get really passionate about, actually. It's when people take the piss and take time off, people that are turning up for work are losing out. That's just not fair. Yeah. So bosses need to be they need to understand that there's conversations you can have around that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Not to be scaremongered into it.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

And if you're if you've got anxiety as a menopause of women, you're probably not looking to take every Friday off. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're genuinely saying this is something that I need to have support with to get better.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

You know, and I think that a lot of people that, you know, it's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Oh, no, no, no. It's it's a good one though. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Um, unsupportive or unaware managers. Again, you've got to be a sort of certain sort of woman, but I think most of us are. Education. You know, there is they your company has an obligation to support you from a health and safety perspective. Menopause does fall under that. So if your boss is resistant to understanding, just got to chuck the legislation at them, say that they have a duty of care to you, yeah. And you're giving them solutions, not just problems. Okay. So, yeah, if you if you feel brave enough to have that conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that if you're working in a particularly male-dominated environment, sort of I'm not going to say which ones, but No, don't go on, I'll complete pit. That construction's a bit of a bugger for it because there's not that many women in construction. So the men are completely oblivious to those sorts of con those sort of conversations. And as soon as they're they probably don't even realize their wife's perimenopausal because it's not something they're coming across every day and she's keeping it to herself. But yeah. Um, so things that you can do, rigid rigid work patterns don't work for women that are menopausal. You know, we get don't you get super tired every now and again? You just like I've never been someone that can catnap. I'm determined to start this year. Because I'll just sit down and I'll be absolutely exhausted. Can you imagine if you're working at the same time? Yeah, it's tough. So you've got that so there's nothing wrong with asking for breakout rooms and you know, being able to block time in your diary, just if something comes up and you can move stuff around, then that should be something that you're that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

I like that a breakout room.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Um, rigid word patterns, ask you can ask them temporarily to change to see, you know, maybe getting on the tubes in the morning or you know, sort of having a hot flush with all those people is really uncomfortable. Maybe if you want to start earlier or start later and just do a bit of flexibility to see. I think it's about you knowing what you can advocate for and what you can ask for and what would suit you, and we're all very, very different. Yeah. So what we're gonna ask from our bosses will all be completely different as well. Knowledge and knowing what you can ask for, I think, and that's something that a lot of women don't know.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

And that is in itself quite a big thing to do. And if you've already got anxiety, that's on top, could give you like a panic attack, if anything.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

And if you sort of think about yourself and how many times you've had good managers that you'd be able to have that conversation with.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, not many, not many, not many at all. I mean, apart for myself, because I work for myself, so I'm a good manager. I'm fantastic. I talk to myself all the time. I say, get yourself together, woman. Stop mucking around. Put your finger out, put your finger out, go and do some work, stop moaning. So the the confidence thing is quite an interesting one. So I think you know, we were talking about this earlier. I lost my confidence in my first year of post-menopause, completely went. And I actually didn't even know that that's what it was, and then until I kind of sat back and thought, hang on a second, where's my confidence gone? And then and then I realized that it was part of my my journey, if you like. So confidence is quite a big deal for women, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

And I think that because lots of these symptoms only become sort of understandable once you're diagnosed as peri or whatever. So for the the time where you're just thinking, why is this happening to me? You cut it kind of wraps up in your head and you do a bit of catastrophizing, I think, generally. But once, like you say, once you know, you can kind of deal with it, yeah, and then you feel slightly more empowered because this is a problem I have, and I'm working on sorting it out.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

So I think it's about like I say, women knowing what they're entitled to, knowing how to get the help and sort of advocating for themselves, definitely advocating, and in part two, we are trust me, we're gonna go through all of that. Any tips that we can to help women women through it. Has there been any other changes in um menopause for at work?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

So I think the well, you said you were giving some stats earlier. Yeah. Um, the one that really resonates with me is that two-thirds of women don't think they're supported in the workplace. Wow. A third of women do change jobs. Yes. And that that's really sad. It is. You know, and not just for them, and although it's probably not that bad for them because they want to get out of their organisations, but bad for the organisations they're leaving. So, you know, it's it's a big deal. It's a big deal how much it does affect people and the cost to the economy as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Well why the cost to the economy?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Just how many of us are are menopausal and working, you know, and the impact that's have having, and if we're leaving skilled roles, and it takes on average six months to replace somebody and get them back up to a relatively decent speed. Sure. If you're taking and most pe most women, because I deal with professional women, are quite senior. So taking someone senior out and having nothing there, that's gonna impact the business.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Okay, so let me throw a cove ball. I could be going a bit naughty here. But do you think some companies take advantage of menopause? Meaning that if they want someone out, they know that that all they need to do is not give them the support and eventually they'll go.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

That's gonna be illegal from uh yet to be assessed date this year though, when it becomes characteristic, they can't do that. But if that organization is trying to get somebody out from that, then they'll be doing it for other reasons as well. Yeah, yeah. If someone wants somebody out and they don't have any sort of focus on well-being or they don't realise the impact it has on their staff, you do get lazy managers that just want to get rid of the problem. It don't it generally creates more problems when you do that, but that's the sort of business they are, then they'll do that regardless. It's just another excuse for them to behave badly.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

And with big businesses, obviously they've got more financial oomph behind them. So if if you go to a smaller business that doesn't have that, do you think from your experience, are they treating their staff better because it's it's less so or I think that small businesses if they've got uh uh someone in their life that's peri, they probably or menopausal, they probably understand it a bit, but lots of small businesses just doesn't even cross their uh sort of uh desk as being something that they know anybody.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

It's so bad, isn't it? It's so sad. Well, and it might be because they haven't got anybody that's perimenopausal in their business, so they don't need to worry about it. Yeah, but if they do, then unless that woman is quite forthright and sort of talks about it, they're not gonna learn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Wow, does it make you frustrated as someone that's been working in HR for a long time and someone that is also perimenopause of the way that we are companies are with women?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, um, because one of the things I'm seeing is when women go through their peri stage and they do want to take a step back, it's very, very difficult for them to get back into work. And I think that we do live in an ageist world, and I do think that if you're a 50-year-old woman, you won't put up with as much bullshit as a 35-year-old man. Yeah. So that company, if you can both do the same job, they're likely to take that man every day of the week, sort of thing. So I it I find it frustrating that we still we're still there. I find it frustrating that we're not even on the same wage levels. Do you know what I mean? We still have issues there that we can't walk down the street and be safe. There's lots of reasons that make me angry about women generally and how we're being treated. But that's not what this is about.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

We have a goal, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

So I think that what's good is that it's becoming mainstream and that although it is a bit of a box-ticking exercise, it won't take long for one or two people to take them to court before they start taking it seriously in a big organisation. In a smaller organisation, if the woman's positioning it as a this is how you keep me in the business, because I'm a good worker, um, then they'll be a bit more flexible, they'll understand it a bit better, and they'll they'll appreciate, you know, sort of if a woman wants to go part-time, because you know, if for for a year or so she wants to go part-time, she can you know, sort of um advise that they get a junior level person in.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

So that way, when you've got two people doing a similar job, then you're covering all sickness, you're sort of sharing the workload, you're not and because you obviously wouldn't be paying her a full salary, so you're probably saving money on that as well. Yeah. Because there's ways that you can then these are generally you're entitled to one flexible working request a year, with the new legislation, it's gonna be two, and you can do that from the day that you're sort of employed. Okay. But I always suggest that a flexible working request is is quite formal. Just talk to your boss and see if you can just sort something out informally. Then you're not using up any of those. If if they say no, that's when you put in the flexible. If you can sort out your reasonable adjustments unf unofficially, yeah, then that's a much better way of doing it. Rather than I'd say go go gung-ho and get and send out a formal one because that might just freak people out and then they might start shutting down. Yeah, because people do, don't they? Completely. It's always best to have these conversations informally if possible.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Okay, so changing changing jobs.

unknown 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Why? See, I've straight away I'm thinking, and I've said this before, and I said this in the intro, women don't put up with shit when they get to a certain age, when they go through their menopause. Um they look at their life. Is it a midlife crisis? Are they is it a menopause thing, or you know, from your experience, women changing their jobs midlife? What's the reason what's the reason behind it?

SPEAKER_01 36:20

So for me personally, it was because I was in an industry I didn't enjoy any more.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

And would that have would that have been menopausal? I think because the world has changed such a lot, I don't think the HR was changing back to the fluffiness it used to be. I think it was going to be quite hardcore. So I decided that it wasn't for me anymore. And I think what menopause does is give it give us an opportunity for a life audit. What do what do I like about my life?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

And generally, if you've always hated your job, it's probably not menopausal. But if it's something that suddenly started to appear in the last two or three years, it's likely to be menopausal. You know, it's pretty common sense, really. If we've always disliked something, then that won't be tied to it. But it's up to you. You might want to, you know, I've what I've got a client at the moment who's Perry, and she's going through a challenging time with her restructures, but she's got a really nice, flexible working pattern sorted. Okay. So she wants to give it a crack to see if when she came to me, she didn't she I think she wanted to discuss what else she could do. But when we went through the options, and I think this happens to a lot of women, when you sort of it's very much better the devil you know. So if you think you're in a business that can support you, then I'd say give it a crack, give it a year, see how you feel in a year's time. If you hate your boss, you hate what you're doing, time for a change.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

That's everything that could be about 80% of the population out there.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Usually and you hate your colleagues, that's the big one, isn't it? Oh, yes. Usually you like your colleagues. So if you're hating them, then it's probably time for a change.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah, that's right, because colleagues can get you through it, can't they? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

But if they're not.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

The patterns I've sort of noticed is people moving from corporate into coaching, should I say it? Yes, um, consultancy, self-employment. They want to back away from that, someone telling them what to do, telling them how to live their lives, when to come and go, and they want that empowerment of working for themselves. Um, people that are in HR education, healthcare, and leadership positions tend to be those that are looking for the career change right now. Right, okay. Um, I just think that's just part and parcel of sort of what they're getting at the moment. Sure. Um, there's definitely that I'm working for a business that I don't connect with. I want to work somewhere that, you know, I align with their values or that appreciates me. I'm doing three people's jobs, I just want to be doing one person's job. So I think it's about moving towards things that fit you personally a bit better. And let's be honest, when we started working, we were just happy not to have our asses slapped, weren't we? Really, and get paid. We weren't really expecting a lot. No. Now, kids like coming into the workforce have got such high expectations, and I think us middle-aged women need to step up to that. We need to have expectations for ourselves as well. Yeah, you know, for and particularly like menopausal, you might have um elderly parents that you're looking after, you've got teenage kids that you're looking after. Yeah, what a shit show. You know, that's a lot of hormones, a lot of drama. So it's more about us prioritising ourselves and saying it's a bit like you can't love other people unless you love yourself. Yeah, unless you're looking after yourself, you can't look after other people. Yeah. So, and I think that if you're lucky enough to have a partner that's on a decent salary, then you've got a little bit of a buffer. Yeah, but I also support lots of independent women that uh just have themselves.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

See, that's another one. So a lot of women, sorry to interrupt you, just before I forget because of the brain fog, but because it will happen. Um, a lot of women when they get to menopause have been supported. Uh, we're talking about um, you know, potentially their husband, might not be their husband, maybe a partner. Um, so do you get a uh do you find that a lot of women get to that point where they just want to start doing something for themselves but they're not sure what path to take?

SPEAKER_01 40:17

I don't think that when when women come to me, they're thinking about themselves, they just say to me, often I need a change, I don't know what it looks like, but I just need to be doing something I don't hate, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_05 40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

So quite often I when I start coaching, I do sort of a couple of different exercises. And quite often it's not just work that's causing them grief, it's other things as well. So we might actually decide to focus on the things outside of work to support them, and usually when that sort of starts happening, then they're a bit more able to cope with the work environment.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

Because everything influences everything, isn't it? Really? Oh, interesting, yeah. So yeah. Okay. So um the other thing I was gonna say, tell me Tell me, tell me, we've got time, we've got loads of time.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

So, um what a big thing that women are kind of doing at the moment is wanting to move from full-time to part-time.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

That's a big one. They want to stay within their industry, stay within their role, but they don't want to be giving their lives to it anymore. They want to have flexibility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

So is that because they just want to have a bit of fun and and me time?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

I think I think it's definitely about the me time. They've sort of they might have supported everybody else their whole lives and never really take it, prioritise themselves. So some of the things that my c current clients are doing is like basically reducing their screen time when they're at home, having date nights with their partner, spending more time, family time, and also quite a lot of them are going out and doing walks on their own in the morning, at lunchtime, having that quality time to yourself. So I think it's more about choosing what you want to do with your time rather than when you're working full time, you've got all those act all the things that you need to do in the in the evenings and weekends. There's stuff you've got to do, you can't, you don't really have a lot of me time. Whereas when you're working flexibly, you can choose when you have that time. So you might want to pop down a spa, have a massage, or read a book, whatever. You can do it because no one's telling you you can't.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

But it's it's true because I think I've personally, as I've got older, I I resent not having any time for myself. Whereas before it wouldn't phase me. I'd be like You're too busy. Too busy, busy, yeah. But now I'm like, no, it's not good enough. I must have that time, and it frustrates me if that time is not there. It really pisses me off.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

It should do. We're not there to service everybody the whole time, are we?

SPEAKER_03 42:52

I find now that as I again as I've got older, that I am trying to take that step back more because I feel burnt out otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

And I think that's something that definitely has been a pattern with my clients is boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

It's about understanding that you need to give yourself time, and the reason for that, you know, I was listening to a podcast recently, and the woman had ADHD, and she had this, she had two small kids, yeah, and she used to have this big sticker that she used to put on, don't ask mummy any awkward questions, like because we go through ADHD because they go through course sort of like severe mood swings according to their hormones. Interesting. So because she had that, she was like, do not ask me any trick, and husband, don't ask me any tricky questions, don't ask me the same type of question twice, just for a week at a month. And her kids did it. So can you imagine if we just like put something on don't ask, don't talk to me, basically, for this this week. Yeah. So I think that's like the that's an extreme form of boundaries, but it's that whole understanding why you need to have that space and explaining it to your family and kids and friends, but it not being a oh, I'm sorry about this, because why are you sorry? This is something you need. Tell them what you. Need and if they don't understand it, then you need to tell them again and again and again and again and again. Because it's a non-negotiable for you to look after your own mental health.

SPEAKER_03 44:10

Oh my god, yes. So my dog, we had a behaviourist last year, she said she told me to get an object because my dog doesn't leave me alone sometimes, and she stares at me all the time, even when I'm trying to relax. She said, get an object, don't say anything, put it in front of her, and then put it down and then walk away. And she said, and any time you want that time out, you just it's like a little duck.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Not sure you could do that with your your husband, could you? It's worth a try though.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

It's worth a try. I mean, I can try it. So that's a really great place to finish. Um, what an episode. So much information there today. It's incredible. I just want to say an amazing thank you to Amanda for joining us. And you at home, I really hope you found this episode useful for your work-life balance. There's some real good tips from Amanda there, and she will be back with us in part two. So let's just talk about that for a minute. So, what's coming up in the next part? So, menopause dinners as always, we have some food, and as Amanda's travelled so very far to be here today, she's got a really nice meal that I've made for her. So, all will be revealed when you come back. We'll be talking more about this subject and also questions from the audience and some tips from Amanda too. So, please do come back. So, if you like to be a guest, just no podcast experience needed. Just need someone that's wants to chat about their menopause or even like Amanda with their expertise. So, don't forget to like, create and subscribe on any of the platforms you listen. Did you know you can also send a text? Function, there's a function on the podcast. Why not tell us how we're doing? Even on socials, get in touch. There's also an hour monetization button, and we're non-profit, so every little bit helps. So before you go, a final thought. Metapool sucks, but with friends it sucks a whole lot less. We'll see you next time on Menopause Dinners. Take care of the Metapool Sinners is sponsored by Fitness Therapy for You. Any supplementation or nutritional advice it's given from our own experiences, please do consult a professional if you have an existing medical condition.